When is the civilized world going to say enough?

[Beachcomber]

to muslim extremists. over 200 dead in Pakistan and now a Manila mall was bombed killing 8. Yet all we hear are muslims whining and complaining about their "feelings" being hurt by being discriminated against. Yeah, let's just lie down and let them do whatever they please lest we offend them.. Worse than wild animals.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 19, 2007 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Beachcomber ]</font>

[Lew]

Boy I struggle with this one. I've always had a passion for freedom of speech and religion, regardless of how extreme (subject to the usual rules). Even right after September 11, when several of my friends got on the anti-Muslim bandwagon, I played the role of Devil's advocate. And things like when a Mosque here is vandalized and the police don't investigate with the same intensity they would a church...I still disagree strongly with that.

That said...

You hit it right on the head, GL. We are in the midst of a severe cultural clash. While that in and of itself is nothing new, this one does have a twist. Even at the height of the Cold War, one of the factors (maybe THE factor) that kept things from escalating into a full-blown nuclear war was the understanding, on both sides, that mutual destruction would be the most likely result. And what good does it do you to destroy your enemy if they destroy you in the process?

Needless to say, the 19 men who committed the hi-jacking on 9/11 (indeed, any "suicide bomber") don't seem to suffer from such worries. I realize we're not talking about a majority of Muslims, but at the same time we're not talking about a few hundred people, either. If the images on the TV are correct, there appears to be no shortage of young Muslims willing to blow themselves up in the name of killing hundreds/thousands of others with them.

ANd I'm sorry, we don't need to be focusing on religious tolerance and understanding any more, not now anyway. We need to focus on resolving the conflict. I don't know what that answer is, but I can say that whatever has been tried so far apparently isn't working too well.

[reason]

I can't figure out why so many people don't understand that this is about politics, not religion. Religion is merely the vehicle to sway the masses.

Y'know, there's a reason Dubya "found religion" even though he doesn't have spiritual bone in his body.

[Beachcomber]

Politics controlled by religious fanaticism. But like a true politician, Osama et al sit safely hidden away in caves and let their dirty work get done by jihadist fools...

[reason]

Watch the movie "Jesus Camp". It will explain much about Karl Rove, the Bush administration, and the Republican party over the last 7 years.

Pay especially close attention to the minister's comments about democracy near the end of the movie.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 23, 2007 09:51 AM: Message edited by: The Big Sexy ]</font>

[Beachcomber]

I'm no fan of the Religious Reich on the far right, but let's face the fact: they are not blowing up buildings and killing people in suicide attacks. (Unles you consider the invasion of Iraq a manifestation of it, which does not stand up under scrutiny because we have not imposed Christiany on the new govt of Iraq). Every fucking day there is another headline of dozens, hundreds killed in yet another suicide bombing by some crazed muslim extremist. They have an agenda: crush anyone who does not subscribe to their version of the koran. It's war, and at the rate it's going they will win.

[Lew]

I don't disagree with Reason's comment, because let's face it, in that part of the world, the Church is the State.

And look, there is no question that you can fine extremist "Christian" who have committed wrongs (the late Rev. Jim Jones comes to mind, as well as the abortion clinic bombers). I have seen "Jesus Camp," and it makes no bones about training young Christian "soldiers." I would still like to believe, however, that they aren't going to grow up to become suicide bombers.

I agree with GL- you don't see Christian suicide bombers, nor Buddhists, nor anyone else. If I understand it correctly, the families of the suicide bombers (while I'm sure are sad to have lost a member) view it as an honor to be associated with a martyr.

I suppose their response could be that America, as a "Christian" nation, uses aircraft, helicopters, and troops against them. And I also suppose that, if Al-Queda had submarines and missiles and F-16s and what-not, they'd use them against us. And since they don't, they do what they can.

But we are talking about a non-conventional situation. Throughout history, your army (or navy) lines up against mine, we slug it out until there's a winner.

This is different. We have an army in Iraq but they're not engaged in massive battles againt an opposing army. The Twin Towers were destroyed by a handful of hijackers, not some amphibious invasion force.

But it's really a depressing subject because it's not going to go away anytime soon and there is such a fear that it's only going to worsen.

[travelinman]

[reason]

Originally posted by Lew:
I don't disagree with Reason's comment, because let's face it, in that part of the world, the Church is the State.

And look, there is no question that you can fine extremist "Christian" who have committed wrongs (the late Rev. Jim Jones comes to mind, as well as the abortion clinic bombers). I have seen "Jesus Camp," and it makes no bones about training young Christian "soldiers." I would still like to believe, however, that they aren't going to grow up to become suicide bombers.

I agree with GL- you don't see Christian suicide bombers, nor Buddhists, nor anyone else. If I understand it correctly, the families of the suicide bombers (while I'm sure are sad to have lost a member) view it as an honor to be associated with a martyr.

I suppose their response could be that America, as a "Christian" nation, uses aircraft, helicopters, and troops against them. And I also suppose that, if Al-Queda had submarines and missiles and F-16s and what-not, they'd use them against us. And since they don't, they do what they can.

But we are talking about a non-conventional situation. Throughout history, your army (or navy) lines up against mine, we slug it out until there's a winner.

This is different. We have an army in Iraq but they're not engaged in massive battles againt an opposing army. The Twin Towers were destroyed by a handful of hijackers, not some amphibious invasion force.

But it's really a depressing subject because it's not going to go away anytime soon and there is such a fear that it's only going to worsen.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with you, but I'd like to expound by saying (in a different way than you did) that they aren't going to be suicide bombers because they can safely drop the bombs from high-tech planes and use high-tech weapons. Like you said, the children featured in "Jesus Camp" were groomed to be soldiers...in the name of religion.

I'm not condoning suicide bombing, but if you were in the enemies' shoes and were of limited resources, you'd use the most effective weapons available. It appears that suicide bombing has been reasonably effective.

Remember that we won the Revolutionary War largely through guerilla warfare.

Again, to stress my original point...this is a political war wrapped in religion. But then I'd argue that organized religion is by nature political.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ October 24, 2007 09:36 AM: Message edited by: The Big Sexy ]</font>

[travelinman]

Islamic politics at work